ITB Interviews - FocusFire Series
In this month's ITB Interviews, we talk to British hype caster Darren 'KP' Elmy. He is best known for his recent involvement in the EpicLeague division 1, where he was partnered with Pajkatt and covered numerous high-level engagements. His 2019 and 2020 were jam-packed with event involvement, and we're thrilled to find out more about his experiences throughout.
-> Focus 1: Career Growth and History
ITB:
Hello hello Mr. Elmy aka KillerPigeon! Great to sit down a chat with you. With the end of 2020 approaching, this rounds off quite a busy couple of years for you – with the Chongqing Major, DreamLeague, numerous ESL events, MDL, OmegaLeague and just now the Epic League Division 1. How’s this all been looking back and reflecting?
KillerPigeon:
Holy crap there’s a form of name addressing I’ve not heard in so long, you can tell I’ve been in Esports a while now because it's rare people ever use my surname; “Mr Elmy” kinda makes me feel like one of those suburban dads.
I’m doing pretty well thanks! It definitely has been a crazy what.. almost 3 years? It actually always surprises me that it’s been that long. I was recently watching back some of my older casts and it’s still so shocking to me to see not only how far I’ve come but how many events I was fortunate enough to be a part of!
ITB:
Looking forward back, we’re always curious to know our interviewees history. How is it you came to start playing Dota?
KillerPigeon:
I actually started playing Dota in the early days of it getting the magnificent “2” at the end of its name. I got roped into trying it at uni courtesy of some classmates, I actually think that’s a big way games as complicated as Dota retain and bring in new players, it’s the team factor that allows that “peer pressure” if ya will. So I started in 2012, mainly starting off against bots playing sniper and drow.
I kinda miss those days, the beautiful innocence of discovering a game as enriched and deep as Dota when you have no clue what anything does, I still remember one of my fondest memories being me and a friend laning as troll + centaur discovering quelling blades cut trees and then spending the next 2 minutes digging an elaborate tunnel through the trees to ambush our opponents.
ITB:
How about your journey into casting?
KillerPigeon:
The journey into casting I think is less of a page from “tales of a herald” though. I’d been variety streaming with mixed success for about 2 years while holding down a job that was slowly draining the personality from me. Luckily the ritual didn’t get a chance to complete, a big part of that I credit to streaming.
During the early days of my streaming journey I mock “casted” over my friends Overwatch match while waiting for them to finish and they told me I really should try pursuing that sort of thing. So as is typical for me I assumed I had no capability, laughed that off and didn’t try pursuing it. I think over those 2 years of streaming I maybe cast 2 amateur hots matches and a UK dota match.
It wasn’t until December 2017 when someone asked me to cover some small China league that I did some regular casting, then in January there was the Epicenter casting competition and everything rocketed upwards at an alarming rate! It wasn’t until after my first LAN I started to consider the possibility that I could actually be a great fit for the field and it honestly couldn’t have happened at a better time as my contract in my current job was running out and I had no interest in continuing software dev.
ITB:
Quite the rise indeed! How would you advise anyone looking to emulate the same successes?
KillerPigeon:
I think people always want to know the way to make Dota a viable career path and answering it is always difficult. Everyone's story is very different but the regularity I can assure you is hard work, grind, improvement and finding your niche. I think most people would look at my sudden jump to LANs and assume I got lucky AF, it only took me a few months to go from online caster to on LAN lucker.
Truth is, I give a great deal of credit to the 2+ years prior I had streaming, I think it helped me unknowingly develop a lot of skills that would be useful for onscreen talent. Ultimately though, my underlying advice for people wanting to have these types of careers is dumbed down but true: find what you're passionate about and create something for it, iterate that something until you have people biting at the bit for more.
ITB:
Do have any proudest moments thus far in your career?
KillerPigeon:
Oh damn that feels like such a hard question to answer really. Definitely something that sticks in recent memory is my time in Ukraine with WePlay: there’s so many emotions wrapped up in my time out there. From adapting to life amid Covid, sort of alone and living alone for the first time ever. On top of that the emotional spiral of breaking my arm and feeling kinda useless combined with everything happening back home AND learning a new role + evolving as an onscreen host.
I was incredibly proud of myself by the end of the event. Looking back at how much I’d learnt, adapted and overcame was overwhelming; I think you kind of see it a bit in the final day of Pushka League when I get super hyped on the close out of the Division 2 Grand Finals. Usually you go to an event for like a week, focus on your job and have time post event to go home and reflect; for me I went to Kyiv, stayed there for a few months and had to constantly find ways day to day to keep improving across several weeks, something I believe I done; to me that’s a pride filled moment.
ITB:
You mentioned in a 2018 interview with esportshaven, that esports saved you from a down place. How’s this statement feel re-reading it a couple years further down the line?
KillerPigeon:
This might seem overly dramatic for some, but to create types I think they can maybe relate. I felt trapped, depressed and like everything around me was falling apart. My relationships, my enthusiasm, my creativity… everything was being drained away. The crazy part is that by society's expectations you should be happy ya know? I was earning well, had my own house, growing industry so plenty of jobs etc. But it wasn’t me, for me it wasn’t about the money, or even necessarily the stability; it was about feeling like I’m building something, that I’m creating something and that I’m entertaining someone.
--> Focus 2: Criticisms and Reddit
ITB:
You recently received some criticism of your casting style during the Epic League Division 1. How do you feel about this and is there anything you’d say to those who critiqued your work?
KillerPigeon:
I want to first of all open up by saying feedback is a big part of iterating and evolving something and to those that provided actual feedback: thank you! You’re a big part of why I do this and I appreciate the insights from the perspective of the fans.
It doesn’t really tell them anything of help; if someone is actually decent enough to put in an extra minute or two to write down real criticism and feedback: I read it… I reflect on it and I apply what I think can work. Now it’s important you identify what can work with you as a product and don’t try to incorporate every bit of feedback, you can’t make everyone happy and that’s something I have a challenge with all the time. I’m a perfectionist I WANT to make everyone have the best experience.
However, the reality is just as one person might like watching peaky blinders another person might hate it, does that mean peaky blinders should change its entire setting because a specific group of the audience hated it? Not really, they might take the feedback and think what could be tweaked and that’s what I do.
The other wild category in there were the conspiracy theorists, e.g. “X doesn’t like casting with Y I CAN HEAR IT IN HIS VOICE AND I LISTEN TO HIS VOICE ON REPEAT WHEN I GO TO SLEEP AT NIGHT SO I KNOW WHAT HIS VOICE SOUNDS MEANS!”... okay perhaps a slight exaggeration but you get the idea. To these people I simple say this: maybe fact check before you randomly spout a conspiracy as fact, ask those involved because quite often we don’t mind giving you straight answers, it also saves a hell of a lot of confusion down the road.
ITB:
What about your thoughts on your casting style generally?
KillerPigeon:
When it comes to casting I like the idea of it being a conversation, I try to avoid a strict Q&A feeling unless we’re talking about someone who doesn’t do it for a career, for example a top player casting for the first time means you might want to try a heavier Q&A approach because it might be more difficult to get the knowledge nuggets out because perhaps they’re secret strategies their team developed.
But when I’m commentating alongside people I’ve known longer or have been doing this longer I want to talk with them, pick their brain but also throw some things out there. Sometimes I might be wrong, no ones perfect and that’s fine, the beauty is that in you being wrong you get a discussion, not an evil confrontational discussion but you get more details and often the things you might be “wrong” about are subjective, which means you get interesting insights into why a different view is correct because it’s not a simple 101 fact check like “you can deny creeps”.
When I first started casting my approach around this used to be what I called “I play dumb so you can play stupid” the idea is to open a conversation, maybe add some basic colour to the conversation canvas and then watch in awe as your picas-analysto paints their masterpiece.
ITB:
Do you read forums like reddit or twitter while working, or is something you try to avoid while on the job or even after it?
KillerPigeon:
I have a bad habit of reading them that I’m trying to shake, there’s a time and an allowance to how much you should focus on that sort of thing and with the aforementioned obsession over perfection you can imagine how easily and quickly that can become pretty unhealthy for your mental state.
---> Focus 3: Development and Training
ITB:
Following on from the prior question, it’s obvious to many that players have their practice regimens, whether grinding scrims or otherwise to keep their skill up. How do you as a caster stay on top of your game?
KillerPigeon:
It’s a weird transformation for me over time. I think for awhile I’ve suffered a bit from imposter syndrome, so in the early days I tried to just focus on my own casts. If I noticed something in the middle of a cast I'd try to address it but otherwise don’t look at your own performances with too strong a lens because once again >perfectionist< here.
Over time I’ve become more able to look at my own work in a productive light, I also am more able to watch other peoples casts without assuming I need to be doing everything they’re doing. Heck compared to like 2 years ago the amount of time I’ll spend listening to commentators even in completely unrelated games that I might not necessarily follow has increased.
Just recently I’ve found myself watching a lot of AoE2 commentary despite not playing it for several years. It’s about learning that the person you’re racing is yesterday's self, that’s the person you’ve got to aim to beat, not top of the esport T1 numero 1 caster in <insert game>. Obviously being the number 1 person would be great and that may come in time by improving upon yourself but the key is to not get wrapped up in what someone else is doing, focus on your own performance.
ITB:
Do you self-assess, and how does this process go for you?
KillerPigeon:
I think self-assessing and finding systems to measure yourself by can be really tricky, like we already hit on the nuances of social media feedback and casting is very much an immeasurable thing because a lot of it will be subjective.
First of all: forced things are noticeable and can hurt your performance, I for one am a big improv person so I love going with the flow and I think in a job where your emotional responses should fluctuate and you never know exactly what’s going to happen next in a game or a show that’s a GREAT skill to master.
People trying to chase the rap-god idea of casting I think is another big bait, people wrap themselves up in one moment a caster maybe had and set that as the metric to follow.
ITB:
Whose a good example of this do you think, in terms of pioneering a certain style?
KillerPigeon:
A perfect example for Dota is how ODPixel brought about the rapgod commentary. I hear people always focus on that element but there’s so much more to why Owen’s at the top of the game, from his casual banter, to the pace and pitch he applies to his commentary. People sometimes get fixated on one element of what is making a caster great instead of looking at the whole picture.
This is all before even considering the strengths/weaknesses specific casters have that might make them better or worse at certain things. More recently I find myself listening to a lot of Maven, the dude is one of the best commentators out there and it’s not because he can speak ridiculously quick or he sounds like he just sat on his testicles when he gets excited. The dudes a master of anticipation, the way he uses silence to build momentum in his narrative is incredible.
So I think a big part of self assessment is looking at these type of people, finding the common denominators that in general make a good caster, but also not neglecting the niches that are applicable, your niches.
ITB:
New meta and new game-play, how’re you feeling about this patch so far?
KillerPigeon:
Loving all the wacky changes, there’s actually so much to absorb and for a chaotic person like me it’s fantastic because my first thought when reading every core’s changes is “would this make a viable pos 4” *laughs like an evil squirrel. I do like that the supports feel a little more powerful in the flow of the game compared to the carry is god tier patch we just had.
It’s kinda concerning because in a way MOBAs approach is top heavy, we aim to lock in and maintain our audience of veteran players to this end it’s almost a self fulfilling prophecy that we add more and thus complicate the game more just to continue placating our experienced audience. One small positive MOBAs and team games in general that can offset this issue a little is the almost like peer pressure effect: we can still get new players because friends will entice friends to play and their tolerance for learning might be higher because their buddies are in love with the game.
Issue numero 2 is another feature we’re waiting on: Overwatch system: the amount of game ruiners and incredibly toxic people I’ve encountered since the new patch dropped is just blowing my mind. I feel like I have to go into most matches almost expecting the loss and then hopefully not have game throwers or toxic teammates that convert other people into subtle game throwers. It’s pretty sad really and I think it hurts the retainment of returning players as well as new players.
ITB:
Which teams are you expecting to excel through 2021 – year of the underdogs or will the old guard continue to reign supreme?
KillerPigeon:
I’m expecting Team Secret to stay on top at least in the first season, I think they’re one of the teams that thrive the most on new patches. It’s not to say other teams don’t innovate but it would be fair to say that when you’re talking of innovative teams Secret has to be first on your mind for a while now.
That being said I don’t think it’s just going to be the vets on top alone, one thing I love despite what I was just saying is that we are still getting new blood. People rising up and proving how capable they are, the more impressive part being that they can do it without the vets. The example I’m of course thinking of first and foremost is Vikin.gg, I love those guys; the commitment and the evolution of that team has been incredible and I look forward to seeing what teams like that, with young blood can do to rise up and challenge the Dota kings we’ve had for so long.
Hopefully among that young blood I’ll get to see my flag thrusted up alongside some names on the main stage, UK Dotes has started to get some attention recently, with Adz, Tanner and Symmetrical as prime examples and I’m hopeful that we’ll finally get to see some UK representation in the leagues and who knows… maybe even a Major.
----> Focus 4: Mental health, Dota and how Dota organisations operate
ITB:
It’d be great to talk more on a key issue in Dota right now – mental health. I would love to know more about your own experiences with mental health while being an avid gamer, both generally and in relation to Dota 2 specifically. Has Dota 2 been an ally or enemy here, or both?
KillerPigeon:
I’d imagine most of us are guilty to varying degrees of neglecting our mental health, I think a lot of people are waking up to that fact in the last year given covid and the changes to our daily life. I for one have definitely done that plenty over the years and it’s something that I’ve become more self aware of recently, some things recent and others that rightly have stuck with me and I shouldn’t have ignored for years. Things can scar us and linger but we shouldn’t ever let them haunt us or define us and while it can be hard to ask for help or sometimes even realise you need it.. it’s a whole different kind of strength to be able to do it.
It can sometimes be easy to assume you don’t deserve help as well, ya know I’ve been blessed with this amazing career and get to be part of something very special, “HOW DARE I HAVE OTHER THINGS THAT ARE MAKING ME SAD OR SEVERELY SCREWING WITH MY LIFE!?” When you have something good it almost feels ungrateful to say that things could still be better, that you could still feel better.
Other times it might be social norms and roles attached to you that make you feel like you can’t “not be alright”, that you need to man up or just suck it up that’s life. I think these sort of rationlisations can be a trap. It’s true everyone has their bad days, but if you feel constantly down, or attached to the past or crippled by things that have or are happening to you.. you owe it to yourself to try and find a better tomorrow. I’m at the beginning of what will probably be a slow and long road but even in the initial stages I feel better having started to challenge my issues and confront my past. It’s odd how in a world so connected we can often feel so alone, but it’s important to remember that you aren’t and there’s no shame in asking for help.
ITB:
We recently saw that Counter-Strike’s Professional Players’ Association introduced a new Mental Health Program for players (https://twitter.com/CSPPAgg/status/1293171174214643712). We replied that this is an example set and one that should be followed – do you agree with this sentiment and how do you think this should be encouraged throughout the Dota 2 community?
KillerPigeon:
I think people are starting to wake up to just how serious Esports is, how big the market is and how important the people can be. To that end it’s good to start asking “if x football team has tom dick and harry for just one of their star players problems, why can’t we offer at least a fraction of that?”. This is a huge market with huge potential growth filled with young people that we’ve seen time and time again be exploited or completely crack under the pressure. I love to see teams offering these types of incentives.
When a player asks an org “what can you do for me” the answer should never feel like it could be summed up as “exposure LUL”. It’s why I loved it when we saw teams like OG start to expand their supporting staff beyond just the cookie cutters of a coach and a manager, hell some teams don’t even have both those; it’s pretty nuts when you think about the money involved.
ITB:
Do you think there's any diferentiators that make this easier in CS:GO vs something like Dota?
KillerPigeon:
I’d say CSGO’s rosters from what I’ve seen have a little more stability, at least from an esports org perspective: what this means is that with the orgs having more power there’s less risk of a loss on your investment, or at the least the investment can be easier to justify from a security point. Dota has for the longest of times been an esport scene where the power is truly in the hands of the players but in doing so you do inevitably sacrifice stability and will likely scare off a lot of orgs, nobody wants to invest in a team house, a chef, a psychiatrist and a coach only to have the players decide to disband 2 months later and reemerge as the same group 2 months after that with a different org.
This of course then leads into the idea of contracts and those always get viewed in an evil light. Contracts are fine as long as you have your own supporting cast that understands them (getting a lawyer is smart and doesn’t make you look bad, any org that immediately dislikes you because you want your lawyer to look at it is probably screwing you (also don’t ask the org for a lawyer PLEASE find your own impartial one)). So negotiations like that are a big give and take type thing, if you want more you’ve gotta offer more and unless a third impartial body is going to offer free healthcare for Dota players, the talk point for these types of additions start there.
Source: https://www.gameskinny.com/6r1eb/ever-wonder-where-dota-came-from
-----> Focus 5: Dota Community, the DPC and Valve's Engagement
ITB:
In our latest interviews, we spoke with Mr. Big Jams and Nomad discussing Dota as an ‘entity’ ~ being the profession, livelihood, hobby, passion and friendship base for so many. As someone so engaged with this ‘entity’ and community, what’re your feelings on your relationship with Dota and it’s community? Love/hate? Likes and dislikes?
KillerPigeon:
It’s wild how much of my life revolves around Dota at the moment, outside of actual commentating there’s the playing, the research and the learning. The beauty is that Dota is such a complex and always evolving game too so you end up in a continuous loop and learn, evolve, learn evolve. That definitely keeps me occupied so it’s a good thing I’ve got a lot of love for gaming and Dota specifically.
Career test with me is “would I want to do this or something similar to this in 5 or 10 years” and I’m blessed to be able to say yes! Whether that’s Dota or I have to move on to a different esport I’m fortunate enough to know I want this carrer, where exactly I’ll be in 10 years is a different matter, hopefully esports and maybe just maybe our beautiful MOBA is still alive and thriving then.
ITB:
Do you enjoy the inherent freedom of working as a caster/freelancer within Dota, and would you change anything about your working relationship with Dota?
KillerPigeon:
There’s a lot to love about my job but I think the realistic answer would be there are things that could be improved. The big thing I love is that whenever you work you’re working for more than just a paycheck, you’re not only getting to do something creative but you’re building yourself as a business too.
Leading on from that I really wish we could get to a point where it’s almost just the regular practice for talent to be organised for events months in advance. I love the orgs I get to work with but there’s no denying that plenty of us have had situations where we get a call less than a week before an event. I'm grateful for the work, don't get me wrong, but it makes it difficult to plan life around it.
It’s also rare to know if you don’t get a gig until the talent announcement, most of the time you just shrug this one off and don’t let it bother you; but on some big things (say it’s a month long gig for example) it can really eat away at ya and stress ya out.
I just had that recently, it was kinda tough to focus on relaxing and enjoying the holidays because the gig seemed like the biggest of deals and I was kinda stuck not knowing anything after the initial negotiations!
ITB: What are your thoughts on Valves engagement with their fans, and do is there anything more you’d like to see from them?
KillerPigeon:
I think there’s a parallel to what I was just saying… regular thing I’ve heard from many places in regards to the DPC regional leagues is that everything was very last moment and there’s plenty of people still in the dark in regards to information. I think laying out what’s happening a reasonable length of time in advance (at least a month) is not just reasonable but should be our minimum standard, it also gives wiggle room for adjustment based on feedback. It can really suck for the players, the talent and everyone involved behind the scene when things get springed on you at the last second. We’ve already seen the controversy starting to pop up in recent months in regards to communication. We just had this the other day when we started hitting into the discussion of who’s invited to qualifiers and why.
ITB:
Thoughts on the DPC? [Editorial note: Question was asked and answered before the launch of the DPC and before information was based available]
KillerPigeon:
This is a tough one, on the one hand I’m really happy to see some DPC cropping up again but it almost feels like we’re once again changing the system to cater to the same goal, the end goal, the big kahuna… TI. It’s fine that TI is this grand spectacle, our world cup, the creme de la creme.. the issue is how we make everything up to it relevant/matter, how we empower the rest of our scene. To me the regional leagues feel a little bit… light? When you look at it collectively it’s like “Cool! Dota every day!”, but when you break down how much each team is going to play it doesn’t maybe feel like that long road that’s going to have many narratives about improvement and perseverance in one season.
So overall you’ve got a lot less Dota and money in a system that’s layout means the people that actually need the money more won’t get it and the people getting the money are like “that’s nice, but where's TI”. I think we need to find a way to empower non TI events more. The Fifa World Cup exists and is considered the highest of honor for footballers, but the leagues below it thrive on a continent/country basis, the main driving force behind it isn’t the money.
Earnings are pretty even across winning each respective level (world cup, continent and country league) but with the way we keep pushing TI up on a higher and higher pedestal… more distinguishable from the other tournaments… we do exactly that, we alienate the other tournaments and make them a subtext in the story of Dota.
ITB:
One final question, and one we've asked a few times before - it's great hearing everyone's perspective on this. Talking on Dota as a community. What’re your thoughts with respect to a ‘gaming’ or a ‘Dota 2’ culture, how do you think this differs from everyday society?
KillerPigeon:
I think the beauty of gaming culture is that we have this great opportunity to indoctrinate so many different cultures into ours. It’s not defined by geographical boundaries right? But what has to come with that is a level of acceptance and growth, I think it can be very easy to get wrapped up in the anonymity of the internet and use it as an excuse to be a douchemonkey and I think almost everyone's guilty of consciously or otherwise doing this at some point.. but I like to think that the number of us that don’t accept the extremes of toxicity and abuse are a growing number and that as gaming continues to grow that element will stabilize and the negative side will shrink.
I think there’s a leak over from wider society about shunning inappropriate behavior instead of ignoring it, I hope that leak over grabs a hold and becomes one of the core elements of our culture. Sounds like I’m being a party pooper... I get trolling, I get jokes. What I’m talking about is harassment, racism etc.. these type of things should be challenged and people shouldn’t lean into that anonymity to justify it to themselves, hold yourself accountable folks!
ITB:
Thank you Darren, it's been an pleasure and fantastic to get your thoughts on paper on the variety of issues and topics we've discussed today. Best of luck in your future endeavors and we'll hope to see you at one of those upcoming majors!
[INTERVIEW END]
LETTER FROM THE EDITOR
Hello again Dota People,
Much appreciated for all the support reading through our interviews - please do reach out if you've anyone in mind that you think would be interesting to chat to. We'd love to hear from you.
Comments